Salam everyone,
I am sorry first of all to start the debate that was not my intention. Also there were lots of mails about this topic which urged me to write this mail.
First of all Nauman was right that Haram and Halal is only for Allah. Prophet give the message of Allah and Scholars explain the will of Allah according to the Quran and Hadith not from themselves.
It was never about the Bank (as an institution) for certainty that it is halal or haram, all the today’s financial institutions if you trace back you will find the foundations in Islamic history. If you read a book name "Kutbat-e-Bahawalpur" by Dr. Hameed-Ullah (He lived in France all his life and died last year great scholar not traditional but regardless) IN this book there are his research about the every important institution of today with respect to Islamic prospective or Islamic History. For example
1. Quran (Its history how it revealed and compiled later on)
2. Hadith ..
3. Fiqah (some call it “sharia” history and ...
4. Ijmah
5. ….
6. Finance at the time of prophet and later Related link
7. Insurance at the time of prophet and later --> Link
http://muslim-canada.org/hamidullah_all.html
So that is a good book to read for our todays busy lives.
Anyway I have told that fellow that the job in the Bank now a days should not be in the priority list of a Muslim, but there are Banks which are introducing and working on the Halal concept of finance so we as Muslims should help those Banks or institutions as much as we can. And professionally and individually discourage the institutions which do not abide by the Islamic Law.
So the blank statements like Bank are Halal or Haram is not right. The actual question is in each transaction we make is halal or haram regardless of institution. If we have time then we need to learn ourselves if do not have time to research then relay on the research of good researchers who went on great deal of length to explain it to us about the Why.
Funny thing is that money in the banks supposes to be the risk free as one fellow said and then the investments which banks do are suppose to be the risk free that’s what all interest transactions supposed to be. But now a days nothing is risk free and these institutions end up loosing more money then if they probably loose otherwise in case of mudarba. So many big companies go bankrupt for example Enron in US one company eaten billions in one shoot and other company Worldcom 6 billon not to mention individual investor lost money in the form of shares that is separate.
Quran (Just simple translation without my 2cent explanation or opinion you can lookup Arabic since translation only does not do justice)
2:276 Allah will deprive usury of all blessing, but will give increase for deeds of charity: For He loveth not creatures ungrateful and wicked.
2:278 O ye who believe! Fear Allah, and give up what remains of your demand for usury, if ye are indeed believers. 2:279 If ye do it not, Take notice of war from Allah and His Messenger. But if ye turn back, ye shall have your capital sums: Deal not unjustly, and ye shall not be dealt with unjustly.
2:275 Those who devour usury will not stand except as stand one whom the Evil one by his touch Hath driven to madness. That is because they say: "Trade is like usury," but Allah hath permitted trade and forbidden usury. Those who after receiving direction from their Lord, desist, shall be pardoned for the past; their case is for Allah (to judge); but those who repeat (The offence) are companions of the Fire: They will abide therein (for ever).
3:130 O ye who believe! Devour not usury, doubled and multiplied; but fear Allah. that ye may (really) prosper.
4:161 That they took usury, though they were forbidden; and that they devoured men's substance wrongfully;- we have prepared for those among them who reject faith a grievous punishment.
So bottom line is making Haram and Halal is from Allah
Prophet tells us about that order and explains it more or less
Scholars explain it in more detail as new type of transactions and institutions pop up.
Common people like me and all of us follow it if we accept Islam as our religion.
There is no question that riba, usuary, interest is Haram in any Islamic school of thought actually Islamic Republic of Pakistan constitution and Supereem court of Pakistan also deemed riba illegal. Only dispute among (majority of learned tradional + non tradional scholars) and (non scholars + GOVT of Pakistan and replaced judges of Pakistan Supreem court) that what exactly classified as riba and what is not. Formar are very clear on that and later one say that the current system is not usuary.
"Syed Haq Nawaz . (haqnawaz)" <haqnawaz@cyber.net.pk> wrote:
No matter country is get prosperous or not, banking industry
is flourishing. New industries are not setting up but banks are
sitting on large deposits. Since no corporate customer is there
to borrow loan form banks so they are getting indulge in consumer
loan schemes.
The thing that interests me here is that bank are investing
way too much on their IT setup and hiring IT professionals.
Here is some of the information i know about banks,
(lets start with the place i have been working on)
~Bank Al Habib~: It has got whole IT department with all the in-house
development in Java and DB2. Even though it has capacity, some
of the projects get outsourced, u know for political reasons.
~Soneri Bank~: They are getting developed their new banking system
in consortium with Sidat Hyder. This system is in development and
testing phase, so it is good time for a starter to jump in. DotNet and
SQL server is the technical environment.
~CDNS(central directorate of national saving)~: This govt. org. is in
the middle of overhauling its business scenario with prospective
banking system. Oracle and Java are the culprits.
~Habib Bank AG Zurich~: A bank with main IT operations from Dubai,
they are pioneer at WAP. There is a chance if u apply their they
might get u on the plane to Dubai.
~Union Bank~: Bank with AS400 setup, and an IT to cope up with any
newly lunched financial product. Now they are off loading from DB2
for AS400 to some windows based system. Good pay scale there.
~UBL~: A huge IT with many fastians there. Many internet projects
and job stability.
~ABN Amro~: One of the employee-benefit bank, alternate Saturday
off and mostly 9-5 timings. Good increments.
~Standard Chartered Grindlays~: Nice IT setup and working on Java
technologies like Sturts and so. Initially on contract basis i guess.
~Habib Bank~: I've heard they installed world's renowned banking
software Capiti by IBM.
~Saudi Pak~: A growing bank with IT setup of VB and Crystal report.
~MCB~: Having well IT setup offering many web based and online
services, some fastians are already there too.
~FMFB(first micro finance bank)~: An application developed in
Java and DB2 now is in maturity phase.
~Meezan Bank~: Good IT setup, working on VB, SQL server and
crystal reports. Nice pay there but a bit late sittings.
Other two full fledge Islamic banks are Al-Baraka Bank and
Bank Islami Pakistan. I am sorry i don't know much abt these.
Moreover, there are nine banks that have separate branches for
purely Shariah based transactions. Hence, a total of 11 banks
involved in Islamic banking have over 60 dedicated branches.
Chao.
----- Original Message -----
From: Mahwush Ali
Date: Thursday, August 11, 2005 9:51 am
Subject: [GOF] More on Banks, probably this can help
> Aoa,
> I am forwarding some useful links that can address alot of
> unanswered issues. All questions are answered by authorized people
> who have deep insight of these matters.
> Hope this will help.
> regards,
> Mahwush.
>
>
>
>
> Bank jobs
>
> Can a muslim work in a Conventional Investment Company (Not a
> Bank)...If you look at the financial of any company, Interest
> Income (RIBA) is found almost every where,
> http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=8647
>
> If someone doing job for education fees no other way of income
> whats he gona do? I read on your website its haram to work in banks?
> http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=8652
>
> I have asked same question (ref: 5178) to different muftis ad
> scholars in our country and according to all of them job in any
> department of bank and any type of work in bank is haram
> http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=5417
>
> I work for a division owned by a bank which only does accounting
> work for the bank. Is this allowed ?
> http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=3620
>
>
> IT Projects / jobs in Banks
>
> Would assigning a Project of a Bank to a Muslim subordinate be
> permissible ?
> http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=5522
>
> I work in the IT Department of an MNC Bank in Singapore. Can I
> work in the IT dept. Let me know please.
> http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=12323
>
> Is it permissible to work as a computer programmer in the IT
> department of a bank bearing in mind that I do not come into
> contact with any interest transactions ?
> http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=10499
>
> i am working in a sftware company and we are doing a banking
> project; please tell me is it haraam to continue with this job?
> http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=10392
>
> I am in need of a job and a position is being offered to me in a
> company which is involved in making softwares. Softwares that help
> banks and other companies monitor their client's credit ...
> http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=9925
>
> I really couldnt understand how the salary is halal (ok) for
> working in IT department of bank
> http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=5387
>
>
> Fixed Deposits / Current Accounts
>
> I want to know make Fixed deposits in the bank for compound
> interest and without an intention to use the interest money for
> myself.http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=11586
>
> 1-job in Non muslims country . 2-My father is retire but he could
> do bank job we eat Haram money till now and live in a house which
> made in haram money
> http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=10345
>
>
> How to dispose off bank interest?
>
> Can interest earned on the bank account be used to offset bank
> charges (mainly govt taxes) for that same account or other accounts.
> http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=2052
>
> How to deal with Interest received in the Saving Bank Account?
> http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=5597
>
> Can I ask a Bank for my Interest without having the Nya of
> spending it for myself but for giving it as a Charity?
> http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=7320
>
> Can interest money received from a bank be disbursed to simply
> anyone? (Instead of giving it to those eligible to receive Zakat
> without the intention of getting reward)
> http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=9750
>
> Can a person do Fixed deposit in bank to help poor people.
> http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=6552
>
> How should I spend the money that comes as interest(not
> intentionally) from the Bank?
> http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=12142
>
> Is it jaiz to use interest earned from a bank to pay off interest
> charged from the same bank ?
> http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=12148
>
>
> Bank loans/financing
>
> Is it allowed to take loan from the bank with interest?
> http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=3152
>
> Is it halal or haram to borrow money from the bank on interest in
> order to purchase a house or a property ?
> http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=685
>
> Buying a Car on a fixed installment ...According to the bank
> (reserve bank laws) I have to insure this financed car. Would it
> be ok to then accept it with insuring the car?
> http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=10152
>
> I want to know if it is permissible to finance a house or a
> vehicle from the bank. I heard it is permissible according to some
> ulema.. please give a detailed explanation..
> http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=9724
>
> Car financing schemes that are being offered by banks
> nowadays...people argue that since we are using the car, extra
> money charged by banks is there to compensate for depriciation.Is
> this correct?
> http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=9221
>
> I need to buy a car. Albaraka Bank's pre-Requisites I cannot meet
> as I do not have so much to put down as deposit. will it be
> permissible to take a bank loan on interest?
> http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=8346
>
>
> Relation with bank employees
>
> Gifts from a person whose income is haram... One of my friend
> works for bank (involved in the interested based business),
> http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=7151
>
>
> Working in a Firm/Company that works for bank
>
> I want to know wether it is jiaz to work for a firm that audits
> the books of a bank, i dont work for the bank.
> http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=6534
>
> I have a contract with an auditing firm. Is it permissible to
> audit financial institutions eg. banks and transactions involving
> financial instruments eg. Options, Forwards, etc.
> http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=6478
>
> I own a security company and I do cash collection & banking for a
> national gambling organisation this contract provides employment
> for 30 muslims is it Haram and if it is what should i do
> http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=4222
>
>
> Others
>
> Can we put money in the bank?
> http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=1833
>
> Below are two links, www.meezanbank.com/dollar.asp,
> www.meezanbank.com/dollar-fatwa.asp If you please check the site
> and find out the authencity of this bank
> http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=7645
>
>
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